Bret Easton Ellis is my favorite author.
“Less Than Zero” and “The Shards” are my favorite books of his.
In “The Shards”, the TV series adapted from the book, Debbie is my favorite character.
And Hayes Warner is my favorite discovery, thanks to the series.
In “The Shards”, the series created by Ryan Murphy, Hayes plays Debbie Schaffer, a girl whose relationship with her parents is complicated and deeply toxic; she is someone who can be brutally honest with her friends and yet far less truthful in her relationships with men. A girl who carries herself like a woman, who doesn’t need anyone’s permission to speak her mind, who wants to “rule the world” — and does so in incredible clothes and with an unmistakable ’80s beauty look.
But Debbie is much more than that. She also embodies what can happen when the weight of your parents’ expectations threatens to shape — and even damage — your life, and just how painful carrying that weight can be. We met Hayes in her hotel room in Venice a few weeks ago, and what immediately stood out was how dedicated, kind, and full of energy she is — yes, even with jet lag. A musician and an actress, Hayes is exploring new sides of herself through “The Shards”, while reminding us that her first great love was, and still is, music.
I just finished seeing “The Shards”. When we met I was missing the last episode and I’ve seen it now. I loved it so much. I’m a big fan of Bret Easton Ellis. I read “Less Than Zero” and “Tha Shards” when it came out, and I was so happy to see this series. For me, it was amazing, really. Congratulations.
And you are perfect as Debbie. Really — I’m not saying it just because it’s you! I was telling my husband yesterday, “Oh my God, she’s great…”
That means so much.
Had you read the book before getting the role?
I read it beforethe audition, and then throughout the callback process I read it again. And then, while I was doing the actual show, I was reading it all the time. You know, I was referencing any scenes that we were doing. I was making sure that I was reading any description of Debbie. I’ve read that book so many times now.
I want to read it again now. After seeing the TV series, I really want to read it again, and I think this is a very good thing.
Yes, I know. I think it’s bringing people back to the book. And I think the ending is so up in the air. I mean, the book is too, but hopefully we get to dive in and cover more of the story. But people are definitely jumping to the book now.
What I love about Debbie is that she seems almost incapable of censoring herself. She says things, she can be provocative, inappropriate, she’s brutally honest and incredibly unapologetic. Was that freedom one of the things you loved about playing her?
Sure. I loved how unfiltered she was and how true to who she was. She didn’t really care about how what she said was received. She just says who she is and it was really freeing and fun for me to play. A lot of the acting was also improvised, thought of on the spot. And I got to have so much fun with that and just say anything that came to mind from Debbie’s perspective. I had the best time doing that.
Secrets are everywhere in “The Shards”. Everyone seems to be hiding something from everyone else, even from the people they supposedly love. Do you think Debbie understands more about the people around her than she lets them believe?
One hundred percent. I think Debbie is so smart, and that was kind of my number-one thing in portraying her. I wanted her to be multidimensional and emotionally vulnerable, but also really aware of what’s going on. This is just my perspective, who knows? When you watch the show, people can make their own decisions, but I think that she’s really good at observing what’s going on and then storing that information and moving through life knowing what she knows, but not rocking the boat too much and revealing what she knows.
“I wanted her to be multidimensional and emotionally vulnerable, but also really aware of what’s going on.”
When you spoke with Bret Easton Ellis and Ryan Murphy about Debbie, was there anything they told you about her that changed the way you saw or played her?
I think, from Bret’s perspective, I really used the book as my foundation. I’m such a fan of Bret, so I wanted to make sure that every little detail about her I picked up on and played somehow. With Ryan, I had a lot of discussions because, when I read the book and when I heard it from Bret’s perspective, I really felt that Bret is an unreliable narrator and is not completely honest or aware of how Debbie really feels.
So I did come to Ryan with a lot of questions, such as, “What does she know?” He didn’t always answer. He just kind of helped guide me in finding solutions and finding what was truthful for me. Like: what does she know? Why is she with Bret? And something that Ryan said about this question is that they have a friendship there. There is a relationship and a friendship there. And I think we really got to play into that. That was definitely a big note.
And also a lot about humor. Debbie is funny and smart and quick, and I loved that about her.
Beauty also seems incredibly important to Debbie. She wants to look perfect, even at school, when her mother tells her that she’s not supposed to wear eyeshadow — she still always wants to be perfect. Do you think beauty gives her power, or is it another standard she feels she has to live up to?
I think it’s both. She was raised by Liz Schaffer, who felt that pressure immensely — the idea of how important your looks can be in a place like Hollywood. That’s the person who raised her and showed her what those values were. So, on one hand, it’s simply what Debbie knows. Those are the values that surround her.
But on the other hand, I really do think Debbie wants to be powerful. Some people might say that wanting fame is shallow, but I think, ultimately, she just wants to be loved. And she sees beauty as one way of getting there.
“I think, ultimately, she just wants to be loved. And she sees beauty as one way of getting there.”
Speaking about her mother, there is a line that I found almost frightening, because her mother says to her, “You are me.” It’s almost as if Debbie’s future is somehow predetermined, as if she can’t do anything about it. Of course, we can already see similarities between them: the obsession with beauty, drugs, success, the desire to be loved. Do you think Debbie is afraid of becoming like her mother?
One hundred percent. I think it’s her biggest fear. And that’s why I love that the scene appears so early in the show. It’s something you don’t get to see in the book because Bret isn’t there, but I think it explains so much about why Debbie is the way she is. She’s terrified of becoming like her mother, but at the same time she parallels her in so many ways. Debbie’s relationship with Bret mirrors aspects of her mother’s relationship with Terry. There’s also the emphasis on beauty and wanting to be famous. There are a lot of parallels. She also sees the tactics Liz uses to gain power, and Debbie starts using some of those tactics herself.
That’s what makes it so interesting: she’s running away from Liz and she’s terrified of becoming her, but she’s also living a very similar life.
There is also a line that stayed with me. Debbie says to Susan, “For someone who looks in the mirror all the time, you don’t really look in the mirror, do you?” What do you think Debbie sees when she looks in the mirror?
I think she’s very, very hard on herself. Debbie never really feels like she’s enough, and she’s constantly being told by the people around her that she isn’t enough. So something like looking in the mirror and truly self-reflecting is probably very difficult for her, because I don’t think she loves herself. And that’s so sad, because I love Debbie. I think she’s amazing. I think she’s smart, I think she’s fun. But I don’t think Debbie really loves herself.
One of the things that struck me most about the show is the almost complete absence of parents. It’s almost a character in itself, this huge absence. These teenagers have money, cars, beautiful houses, freedom, but they don’t have actual care. Their parents either aren’t there, or they are very toxic or terrible examples.
Do you think that absence is at the root of the loneliness we see in these characters?
Definitely. I think both sides of it matter. The parents who are present in the show create a lot of toxic behaviors and contribute to that environment, but the absence of parents is also incredibly significant. These kids have endless money and they can basically do whatever they want, but there’s no one telling them no and no one truly guiding them. You can have everything in the world, but if you don’t have love or someone taking care of you, you can still feel incredibly lonely. We even see examples of young Hollywood stars who made a lot of money very early in life and the psychological impact that can have later on. I think Bret is going through something similar. There’s a real lack of parental presence. To me, the show is also partly about what can happen when nobody is really paying attention to young people.
“You can have everything in the world, but if you don’t have love or someone taking care of you, you can still feel incredibly lonely.”
And for you personally, do you ever search for solitude? Do you ever need to be alone for a little bit, or is it something you’re scared of?
Honestly, I don’t love being alone. I grew up in New York in an apartment with three siblings, and I have a very close-knit group of friends that I’m always around. Then, while shooting The Shards, I was surrounded by people 24/7. This period between finishing the shoot and the show coming out has been different. I still see my friends all the time, but LA can definitely feel much lonelier than New York. It can be isolating. So I’ve been experiencing being alone more and figuring out how that feels. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I feel lonely. But it’s also nice. It’s a change of pace.
New York and LA are very, very different. I lived in New York for about a year and a half, maybe ten years ago, and I loved it so much. New York is a character. I don’t know, I miss it so much.
Oh my God, yes, they are so different.
There is a moment in the series where someone says, “Kids today have it easy.” And it’s like every generation says something similar about the one that comes next. What do you think is actually one of the hardest things about being young today?
I think that, regardless of the time period, there’s a lot of overlap. When you’re that age, you’re trying to find your identity. You’re confused. You don’t fully know who you are yet, and you haven’t completely grown into yourself. At the same time, you’re in a school environment surrounded by different personalities and social pressures telling you what is and isn’t cool.
That’s why it’s so interesting to watch a high-school story set in the ’80s, because so much of it is still relatable today. One thing that was really interesting to explore about the ’80s was the lack of social media and phones. People had far more face-to-face conversations. Even if something was awkward, you couldn’t just send a text — you actually had to deal with the person in front of you. I think life today is both easier and harder because of social media. There are wonderful things about it, but there are also things that can be really difficult for people growing up.
And I think that’s why they constantly see each other in the show. I mean, they cannot text, they cannot know otherwise. They are always together. So you really feel the difference.
Also music is almost a character both in the book and in the series. If you could choose one song from the ’80s to make part of the soundtrack of your own life, what would it be?
I’ve been obsessed with “The Shards” soundtrack lately. I’d probably choose something by Blondie. I love “Rapture” and I love “Heart of Glass” so much.
“I think life today is both easier and harder because of social media. There are wonderful things about it, but there are also things that can be really difficult for people growing up.”
Bret also talks about a particular divide in his life, a “before” and an “after.” Has anything ever happened to you that made you feel there was a version of yourself before it and a different one afterwards?
Definitely filming “The Shards”. If I think back to a year ago, I hadn’t even started filming yet. I had just found out that I’d gotten the role. Up until that point, I was working as a musician and just grinding through that. Then I got “The Shards”, moved to LA within about two days and suddenly found myself in this completely new environment, doing something I hadn’t done before and learning everything on the spot. I think I’m such a different person now than I was a year ago. So there’s definitely a “before” and an “after” for me.
In the dance-off scene, when all the kids are asked to introduce themselves, Debbie says, “I’m gonna rule the world.” And I love how completely she believes it when she says it. It’s very powerful and tender at the same time. If someone asked you to introduce yourself right now with that same kind of fearless certainty, what would you say?
Oh my God, I don’t have Debbie’s confidence like that. I wish I did! I think I would say, “I’m going to keep trying.” I don’t know that I need to rule the world. I’m just doing the best I can. So probably something like, “I’m going to keep doing the best I can.”
“I think I’m such a different person now than I was a year ago. So there’s definitely a ‘before‘ and an ‘after‘ for me.”
That’s brave. I mean, sometimes saying, “I’m going to try and do the best I can” is brave.
I’m always curious about this because, as actors, when you play different roles — and even with music, when you create a song or when you create a new character — you get in touch with parts of yourself that maybe you didn’t know before. So I was wondering if there’s something new you learned about yourself while doing “The Shards” and exploring Debbie.
So much, actually. As an actress and as a musician — especially as a musician — you’re constantly dealing with this feeling of, “I need to be loved.” I got to really explore that through Debbie, and it was almost cathartic because I understand it. I know how she feels.
You want people to love you, especially the people who don’t, and you can find yourself trying to prove yourself to them.
As an actor and a musician, you’re constantly putting yourself out there and trying to make people connect with you, but you can’t force anyone to love you if they don’t. Sometimes you take that really personally, and that’s hard. So I really related to that part of her journey. Another thing I realized is that, when I notice something, I’m not always very confrontational about it. Sometimes I’ll just clock the information and push it down. And I think Debbie does that a lot, especially with Bret. With her girlfriends she can be incredibly honest and direct, but in a romantic relationship she’s much more careful. She can tell something is wrong, but she starts blaming herself. I related to that from when I was younger too. With friends, I could be very straightforward, but in a relationship I was much more careful about not rocking the boat.
“As an actor and a musician, you’re constantly putting yourself out there and trying to make people connect with you, but you can’t force anyone to love you if they don’t. Sometimes you take that really personally, and that’s hard.”
As we said, Debbie seems so certain about who she is on the surface, so confident. What is something about yourself that you are still figuring out?
I’m still figuring out how to have a healthy work-life balance. My emotional happiness can become very tied to how I feel my work is going — how well I think I did in a scene, how something was received. And it’s the same with music. I’m so proud of “The Shards”, and I think that, for the first time, I’ve really been able to step back, be proud of myself and enjoy life. But taking things easy is still difficult for me. I’m trying to learn how to enjoy the beauty of life while also working hard and getting to where I want to be in my career.
This is very difficult because when you do something that you are really passionate about, that you love so much, it’s more difficult to separate it from your life.
At the start — I remember it from the book, but I also loved how they showed it in the series — there’s that scene where Bret is experiencing cinema: the feeling of entering a movie theater for a couple of hours and completely surrendering to another world. Does cinema have that power over you? Do you remember a film that made you feel that way for the first time? Or the last time — whatever comes to mind.
I mean, I feel that way a lot with movies. I also feel that way with music, maybe even more so. But I think, with cinema, “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” — that one was just incredible. I watched it again recently, and I think it’s just so emotional. And I think, for me, also with music, listening to music was such a huge part of getting into character. Because, for me, music really is what transports me into a different world or helps change my emotion and the way I feel.
“Music really is what transports me into a different world or helps change my emotion and the way I feel.”
What does feeling comfortable in your own skin mean to you today?
I think it means that, if I’m proud of something, I don’t care what other people think. I’m not always very good at that, but I’m trying to trust my gut and trust my instincts. If I feel good about something, I don’t want to let other people get into my head.
So my definition of feeling comfortable in my own skin is really trusting myself, listening to my gut and moving forward.
And it’s not easy, so that’s very good.
What’s your happy place?
My happy place would be around people I love. It’s just being around people I love, eating good food and not having a million things to do the next day. Being able to enjoy that moment without thinking about the future or everything I still have to do. Just being present.
Photos & video by Johnny Carrano.
Interview by Valentina Carraro.
Styling by Ilaria Di Gasparro.
Makeup by Francesca Angelina Brazzo.
Hair by Kiley Fitzgerald.
LOOK 1
Total look: Gucci
LOOK 2
Skirt: Des Phemmes
Bra: Des Phemmes
Turtleneck: Elisabetta Franchi
Shoes: Gianvito Rossi
What do you think?